So true! I was raised with discipline and consequences. I raised my sons the same way. As adults now in their 30s, they are confidant, contributing members of society. Today's society is devolving not just because of bad or lack of parenting but even our institutions (schools, etc.) do not set boundaries any longer. Society requires civility to survive and we are heading toward a true life Mad Maxx film which is utter chaos.
The most important thing my parents did for me growing up was allowing me to learn how to bend without breaking. Adversity truly is the primer of resilience.
Today's helicoptering, continuously "good job!"-ing parents are kid-whipped and terrified of their own spoiled offspring. This sad state has been brought about by the psychological profession, particularly those child psychologists who are overcompensated employees of school districts. Seldom has there ever been such a hotbed of pseudo-scientific aca-blather run by pompous over-schooled cozeners.
Parents being scared of their children is something I have been noticing since I myself was a child. It's one of the worst things a parent can be, tbh.
My dad and mom were most definitely in charge, and brooked no nonsense from me or my brother. It sometimes disgruntled me back then, but I'm grateful now that I was raised that way. That was in the 1960s. Things seem to be much different today, at least in many families.
“I find myself screaming internally: “how is this a surprise to anyone?!?’”
Slightly going off on a tangent with this comment, but that quote describes my frustration in so many areas.
People rarely think for themselves. They need experts to do a tonne of research to verify the obvious.
How much time does this waste? How much time carrying the burden of bad decisions because we couldn’t trust our own brains to do the sums.
Anyone who’d done the tiniest bit of thinking could see that relying on experts – whose only evidence is flaky soft-science – to help us deal with bad stuff.
This therapy culture is, what, 50 years old? Was absolutely everyone in the past traumatised permanently? You know, those peasants, slaves, soldiers? All permanently fucked up?
No they weren’t. Some, sure, but they were dealing with far more than most people today.
Don’t outsource your thinking! Not only is it dangerous but it’s dehumanising too.
I think about this *all the time* - how did the human race survive without Zoloft when they were flogging and hanging people in the public square?! When like 6 babies out of 10 died before they turned 5? (I'm making that stat up, but it's somewhere in that ballpark.) How did people cope with sensory issues when they wore rough wool and whale bone corsets?? Etc etc.
The rise of “PDA” is one of the most shocking things I’ve seen, honestly. It’s terrifying to think of what the world is going to be like with these unbelievably self-centered children as adults. These subservient parents spending 24/7 “heroically” bowing and scraping to these horrifically unlead, feral children is possibly one of the most long-term damaging things I’ve seen. They’re creating an entire generation of manipulative narcissists who have been trained to completely melt down if they don’t get every shred of their way.
“But there’s a DiAgNoSiS....”.
“You have to accommodate my child’s need for ‘autonomy’.... (screw the rest of the world’s autonomy. of course.)
God help anyone who has to deal with these families, and God help these children 20 years from now.
Have you been seeing this too? I feel like it just started appearing on my social media feeds and I am just so shocked by what I see. Concurrently, I started hearing about kids who were "too anxious" to go to school, even when the school was the most gentle and calm school around. How can those parents let their children live in delusional fear like that? "Diagnosis" my ass, sorry. My son and his friends are funny and confident kids but I really wonder what their adult lives will be like surrounded by these deeply messed up peers.
The algorithm is serving this garbage up to me in droves - this one woman does “365 days of PDA”… (and *somehow* both her kids have this…) If it wasn’t truly pathological, I’d say these people are creating amalgams of every Willy-Wonka secondary character. “Veruca Salt… “*I* want an Oompa Loompa, Daddy…. GET ME AN OOMPA LOOMPA!!! Now!!!!”
I am pretty sure I would be diagnosed with “PDA” if I were a child today. And my middle child was just like me - but fortunately, I remembered being that child and having a strong desire for personal autonomy (which runs in my family, we are descended from violent hillbillies who had pervasive demand avoidance towards the guvmint revenues trying to tax their moonshine). So I did what my mom did - I picked my battles. Wearing plaid and stripes together with mismatched shoes, dying her hair odd colors, and in general being a weirdo was fine; but brushing teeth, wearing a seat belt, not hitting others, and doing homework were non-negotiable and I just accepted there would be a lot of screaming and protest that I would have to endure before each of these activities. The end result is my 20something daughter who has learned to channel her determination and strong personality into her studies and her career and is the youngest engineer in her company. We laugh about how completely awful she was as a child because she’s so amazing as an adult. She has ADHD and is on the autism spectrum, but we focused on her using her strengths (energy, quick mind, intense focus, not caring about the opinions of others) and while I was sympathetic to her sensory issues (I have a lot of them myself), she had to learn how to deal with them. People have truly lost sight of the concept that the purpose of childhood is for learning how to be an adult.
I love this comment. First of all, I'm also sure my son would have been diagnosed PDA had I been therapeutically minded. He was a big refuser. A refuser of sleep, a refuser of potty training -- eventually, we just had to duke it out. I had to square up to him in matters where to let him have his way would have harmed him in the long run, or were having a direct impact on our quality of life. He didn't even want to be born, and had to be pulled out of me with something resembling a crane. Other things -- like how he methodically broke into tiny pieces nearly every toy we gave him -- I had to let go. I hope my son turns out as well as your daughter!!
And though I was a mild-mannered child by comparison, stubborn and wayward definitely runs in my family too, so anyone "descended from violent hillbillies who had pervasive demand avoidance towards the guvmint revenues trying to tax their moonshine" is someone I want to be friends with! LOL
Haha, my daughter had to be literally sucked out of the birth canal with a vacuum extractor! We still joke about how long it takes her to get out the door every day…And she dismantled and otherwise destroyed every item she came into contact with, and every garment she wore for more than 5 minutes instantly became a torn filthy rag. She was known as “Hurricane Becca” for the path of destruction that followed her everywhere. Every thing from the moment she woke up (generally in a bad mood) until she (very reluctantly) went to bed was a battle! Some days I thought for sure she’d end up in reform school, but she is the most responsible 20something I know. I tell her that she was always mentally 36 years old and it must have angered her being treated like a child just because she was chronologically five years old!
THIS is what great parenting looks like. Coming from a place of selfless love and real empathy, teaching them how to successfully navigate the world is the #1 responsibility of a parent.
Just statistically, they will spend decades living in the world without us - not preparing them to thrive on their own is one of the most selfish, destructive things a parent can do.
Having a sensible mother who truly "gets" you is such a a huge advantage. It helps that personality traits are hereditary, so when our kids have them, it's not our first rodeo. Good job, Mom!
Back in the day, a lot of parents just assumed that the classroom nun or the parish priest was safe if not de facto infallible. Today that naivete is often applied to counselors and therapists. But not everybody with degrees hanging on the wall will help rather than harm a child, although some are helpful. Don't forget how crucial sane sensible loving parents are to child development as parents carry out the biblical admonition to "train up a child in the way that he should go."
Interesting point Susan -- unfortunately putting too much trust in the religious authorities led to a lot of terrible things too. Nothing can replace a sensible parent in a child's life.
I really liked Abigail Shrier's first book, which I thought did important work in studying the social contagion aspect of trans identity. And hopefully, I'll like this one as well. But it also makes me nervous for personal reasons.
ADHD seems to be overdiagnosed in boys, but at the same time, it tends to be underdiagnosed in girls. No one even suggested I might have ADHD until I was 22, because I wasn't loud and disruptive. I wish I'd been diagnosed at a younger age, instead of spending my entire childhood feeling out of sync with other people, and having difficulty concentrating, for reasons that I couldn't even begin to explain. When you get diagnosed as an adult with a condition that you've had since childhood, you can't just go back and undo two decades of negativity from other people and negativity from yourself. Instead of, "My ADHD is really making it hard to concentrate on math," my mental perception of myself was, "I'm a selfish person. People are bending over backwards to give me extra help with math, and I can't even make myself pay attention to it." Sometimes I would say something that was socially inappropriate and other people, including adults, didn't understand that I really didn't understand what I'd done wrong. They'd think I had a malicious intent that I never had, and I'd withdraw more and more from other people, figuring that I'd rather be alone than have people think I was a bad person.
I don't want any little kid to have to grow up like that. And I'm concerned that this book might cause parents who are already skeptical about therapy to conclude that a young child, who really could benefit from an accurate diagnosis, doesn't need any psychological help and should just "learn to deal with it." I never "learned to deal with it" on my own. How could I, when I didn't even know what "it" was?
I have an acquaintance who is experiencing something similar, though she is older than 22, and she has a similar perspective to yours. But my worry is that things like being bad at math, being socially inappropriate, feeling out of sync or not being liked are all totally normal. So, so, so normal. Almost every person experiences that. Especially when you are a kid or teen. The thought of a kid being given speed -- which is what Adderall and Ritalin basically are -- instead of experiencing reality is truly worrying to me.
Also, the bad things that happened in the past are just that -- in the past. I was bullied, ostracised, was a foreigner who didn't speak the same language as my classmates, was alone a lot of the time. Decades of negativity, as you say. But none of those things are my reality now, and I don't think about them negatively at all anymore.
I didn’t go into my whole list of symptoms because it’s a Substack comment, not an extensive medical history, and I’m *certainly* not saying that being bad at math is any kind of disorder. My point there was my inability to pay attention, not the subject. I was diagnosed after a full day of extensive testing, along with reports from my mother and my now-husband. I don’t know if I necessarily should have been medicated as a child, either, but it would have been immensely helpful to know there was a reason for my behavior that wasn’t being lazy, selfish, or just generally inadequate.
“Also, the bad things that happened in the past are just that -- in the past. I was bullied, ostracised, was a foreigner who didn't speak the same language as my classmates, was alone a lot of the time. Decades of negativity, as you say. But none of those things are my reality now, and I don't think about them negatively at all anymore.”
I’m not sure what your point is here. I don’t spend extensive time thinking about bad things in the past, but when the topic is kids and therapy and you’re someone who went through your childhood with an undiagnosed condition, of course you’re going to think about it then.
My question -- not necessarily in your case, which I don't know -- is what exactly is an "undiagnosed condition" and what is a circumstance, or just part of growing up?
When a kid has long-lasting problems with regulating their attention, and it’s causing them to lose points in school for what looks like careless errors, and these problems reoccur and reoccur no matter how hard the kid tries, I think it’s worth being evaluated for ADHD. As I said, I was diagnosed after extensive testing. I don’t think I should have been evaluated as a little kid, but I wish I’d been diagnosed sometime before high school.
There has to be a middle ground. I was diagnosed with ADD and Asperger's at 42, after many hours consulting with a psychologist and my mother. I was put on a very low dose of Ritalin which honestly changed my life. I was able to go back to school and hold a job, both of which had been a real challenge in the past. An earlier diagnosis and a little assistance would have helped a lot.
I think going on a low dose of Ritalin at 42 after much consultation, is totally reasonable and very different to schools forcing Ritalin, on pain of expulsion, on little boys and girls who are little older than toddlers, because they are deemed disruptive in schools that resemble prisons, by teachers with questionable motives. The crimes perpetrated by pharma on American children shame all of American institutions.
Schools absolutely threaten expulsion and social services threaten removal of the child if a parent refuses to follow "medical advice," including a "diagnosis" of ADHD/ADD. I have a friend who at the time was a Swiss national living in the US and her French husband had to travel for business. Their son was born I believe in Kenya and he spent his first 5 years running in the bush with the warriors. He arrived in the US and this very active little boy was expected to sit still in a classroom. The abusers in the schools, along with the abusers in social services, told her she was going to medicate him or they would remove him. The meds messed him up. The same fascist tactics were gearing up on us with our son and I actually made plans to get him out-of-state. We finally managed to find a teacher who helped him settle enough into a classroom.
Oh, God, school. I had a B+ average in high school, because I had my mom to constantly bug me about whether I was doing homework. (Still had to drop one math class because I was failing it, though.) College wasn’t as awful as it could have been - I think I just barely had a C average - but I had a lot of papers turned in late or dashed off at the last minute. I also felt really embarrassed by not understanding some of the material and didn’t ask for help when I should have.
I did get into law school, but I was waitlisted first at the one school that eventually accepted me. (I think they decided to have mercy on me because it was a Catholic law school and I’d graduated from a Catholic high school in the area.) I failed one class there and didn’t pass the bar exam until my third try. Even on medication, I have a hard time writing cohesive essays on topics that I’m not extremely interested in.
Sorry, that was a lot of rambling just to say - I get how hard school can be when you’ve got different neurological conditions. 🙂 That’s so great that you were able to go back to school and hold a job. Neurotypical people don’t always realize how hard these things can be for us and how much even small amounts of medication can help.
So cool you made it through law school! I did studio art in college when I was young because I would drift away unless I was working with my hands. ADD, right? I finally learned how to study, take notes and write papers after I went back. The diagnosis I got helped my self-image no end--no longer was I simply lazy! Reading your comments has been a real pleasure.
The "meds" will help anyone focus and that's why they are rampant on college campus. It's similar to how anabolic steroids. will make anyone stronger. Your description of your grades and lack of interest in essays in high school and college sounds (neuro)typical of most people. I can speak for myself that my grades were so-so and I I really disliked essays, even of topics I liked. Probably why I didn't become a writer. Jack of all trades, master of none! There's room for us and most in my HS class (Catholic) were similar. We did have the few really smart ones who made straight A's and turned everything in on time, but that wasn't typical.
It’s not about “a dislike of essays,” it’s about organizational difficulties in writing that most people would have figured out how to overcome after four years in college (major: English and history) and three years of law school.
As I said in an earlier comment, I’m not listing all my symptoms and life story because it’s a Substack comment, not an extensive medical history. I understand the concern about ADHD being overdiagnosed, and being diagnosed based on little information, and kids being medicated. I don’t get why you think you know more about my brain - from Substack comments! - than I do, and than the psychiatrist who diagnosed me after extensive testing did. I don’t have anything to prove to you, and I’m done with this line of conversation.
Raising two boys in the 90s and early 2000s was a walk through a pop-psychological mine field. Dodging pressure from peers, educational professionals, society in general to subject our precious kids to one “expert” after another. To let them label our eldest boy as this or that and then offer “treatment”.
It never felt right. So we resisted, sought wisdom, trusted God, prayed, and exercised wise parenting-the kind we experienced as children.
Both boys graduated from university. One is married and working in tech for a large company in the USA. The other is starting a business in Bali, Indonesia.
They’re not perfect but they have everything they need to be stellar adults. We watch from a distance, cheering them on, praying, and maintaining a respectful relationship with them.
Yup completely agree and I also know that I would start screaming “like, yeah, duh” before getting too far into Shrier’s book, although I am thankful she writes on the topics she does. I only got halfway through “Irreversible Damage” not because it wasn’t excellent and needed but because I didn’t need it at all.
I have watched this trend in horror since before my daughter was born both in society and with friends and family members. Like another poster said -don’t outsource your thinking. Except in the extreme circumstances of trauma i.e grief, PTSD, physical abuse etc (trauma is another word everyone uses for everything) but I mean real trauma, figure it out. That's the point!That’s life! It’s what makes us unique and strong too by the way. Not easy- but true. What’s everyone looking for? I do believe it’s some sort of sanitized perfection. I am the one to run guard for my daughter as long as there is a breath in my body - no one else! My husband provides a final say for her as long as there is a breath in his body - no one else! I have a hunch our daughter finds it quite comforting.
Talking too much makes people crazy! I think it used to be called wallowing. Loving, simple, plain talk followed by action, doing, working, playing, striving to challenge yourself is the road to seeing things eventually come around with our feelings and difficulties.
Excellent article! I saw this trend a lot when I started my family (early 2000s) It seemed to coincide with the whole attachment parenting movement, which, tbh, I really liked. There were all kinds of books and experts supporting this new kind pf parenting and it seemed to be a real zeitgeist of that period. As a Gen X kid, who'd been raised with a very hands-off, sometimes very strict approach, I'm wondering how much of this more loving, connected, gentle parenting was a backlash to our own upbringing, which, while being less complicated, could also be rigid and unloving. Like any new movement, this whole new parenting approach (showing kids more love, respect, gving more autonomy) was seductive and seemed to offer the magic solution. We wanted closer relationships with our kids than what we'd had with our own parents. However, I could see how this approach could be taken to extremes and result in spoilt kids and mayhem at home. I personally found my own balance of firm but loving when my kids were still small. Not as strict as my own upbringing, but definitely with some rules and boundaries. Now my 3 kids are all young adults and great people to be around. I think the main problem nowadays is that there are so many approaches, philosophies, experts and books out there that many of us have stopped trusting our own instincts. As another commenter here has already mentioned, we need to stop 'outsourcing our thinking' So much of parenting is trial and error and we usually find our own way, without these so-called experts.
Yes!! My personal belief is that we are born with those instincts and somehow society has convinced us that they are wrong.
Slightly tangential to your comment, but re: attachment parenting -- i think that it's absolutely great for babies. But I've seen a lot of moms have trouble letting go of that early dependency stage, which I get because that's the best feeling in the world. In terms of balance, I saw a Tweet that said "gentle parenting is for gentle kids" -- and that's pretty much how I see it!
After teaching children gymnastics for 35 years I can affirm that today's "mothers" are a beset group.
When.I started, the kids who came in were naturally strong and adventurous. Slowly they became more timorous -- and fatter. Now, most, on arrival, cannot support their own weight or control their center of gravity. (At any one time, my company has 4,500 -5,000 of these, so a large sample.)
At the same time, since gymnastics is individual and progressive (i.e. you either did the skill or you did not; you are alone on the equipment so it's all on you), There is lots of failure to deal with. The kids can handle this but many mothers cannot, leading to all sorts of mind games on/with their kids. Soon the kids succumb or tune their mothers out. They are separating from her anyway starting at 2 1/2 or so so this fits the kids' agenda.
The plus is that the kids/parents who survive the winnowing of gymnastics and mommy games do well, very well personally, educationally and professionally. Their parents, too, are gratified. So, although the phenomenon that Shrier describes is real, it is not universal.
This is very, very interesting. I think I would have trouble hiding my frustration with controlling or meddling mothers if I were doing your job. I'm very glad to hear you say that it's not universal -- at least!
I was the quintessential "last kid picked for every team." Looking back, I think that I would have greatly benefitted from a more laid-back approach to physical education. I might have come away enjoying certain physical activities instead of having bad memories of gym classes that happened well over a half century ago.
Absolutely agree. Those books were written by many an ‘expert’ straight out of University and from people that have never even had children! We have over diagnosed a whole generation who now have no life coping skills as a result.
So true! I was raised with discipline and consequences. I raised my sons the same way. As adults now in their 30s, they are confidant, contributing members of society. Today's society is devolving not just because of bad or lack of parenting but even our institutions (schools, etc.) do not set boundaries any longer. Society requires civility to survive and we are heading toward a true life Mad Maxx film which is utter chaos.
The most important thing my parents did for me growing up was allowing me to learn how to bend without breaking. Adversity truly is the primer of resilience.
Today's helicoptering, continuously "good job!"-ing parents are kid-whipped and terrified of their own spoiled offspring. This sad state has been brought about by the psychological profession, particularly those child psychologists who are overcompensated employees of school districts. Seldom has there ever been such a hotbed of pseudo-scientific aca-blather run by pompous over-schooled cozeners.
Parents being scared of their children is something I have been noticing since I myself was a child. It's one of the worst things a parent can be, tbh.
My dad and mom were most definitely in charge, and brooked no nonsense from me or my brother. It sometimes disgruntled me back then, but I'm grateful now that I was raised that way. That was in the 1960s. Things seem to be much different today, at least in many families.
“I find myself screaming internally: “how is this a surprise to anyone?!?’”
Slightly going off on a tangent with this comment, but that quote describes my frustration in so many areas.
People rarely think for themselves. They need experts to do a tonne of research to verify the obvious.
How much time does this waste? How much time carrying the burden of bad decisions because we couldn’t trust our own brains to do the sums.
Anyone who’d done the tiniest bit of thinking could see that relying on experts – whose only evidence is flaky soft-science – to help us deal with bad stuff.
This therapy culture is, what, 50 years old? Was absolutely everyone in the past traumatised permanently? You know, those peasants, slaves, soldiers? All permanently fucked up?
No they weren’t. Some, sure, but they were dealing with far more than most people today.
Don’t outsource your thinking! Not only is it dangerous but it’s dehumanising too.
I think about this *all the time* - how did the human race survive without Zoloft when they were flogging and hanging people in the public square?! When like 6 babies out of 10 died before they turned 5? (I'm making that stat up, but it's somewhere in that ballpark.) How did people cope with sensory issues when they wore rough wool and whale bone corsets?? Etc etc.
Exactly!
I guess you just *think* a lot. And thank you for existing; people like you are the only to antidote to the mass insanity we see today.
The rise of “PDA” is one of the most shocking things I’ve seen, honestly. It’s terrifying to think of what the world is going to be like with these unbelievably self-centered children as adults. These subservient parents spending 24/7 “heroically” bowing and scraping to these horrifically unlead, feral children is possibly one of the most long-term damaging things I’ve seen. They’re creating an entire generation of manipulative narcissists who have been trained to completely melt down if they don’t get every shred of their way.
“But there’s a DiAgNoSiS....”.
“You have to accommodate my child’s need for ‘autonomy’.... (screw the rest of the world’s autonomy. of course.)
God help anyone who has to deal with these families, and God help these children 20 years from now.
Have you been seeing this too? I feel like it just started appearing on my social media feeds and I am just so shocked by what I see. Concurrently, I started hearing about kids who were "too anxious" to go to school, even when the school was the most gentle and calm school around. How can those parents let their children live in delusional fear like that? "Diagnosis" my ass, sorry. My son and his friends are funny and confident kids but I really wonder what their adult lives will be like surrounded by these deeply messed up peers.
The algorithm is serving this garbage up to me in droves - this one woman does “365 days of PDA”… (and *somehow* both her kids have this…) If it wasn’t truly pathological, I’d say these people are creating amalgams of every Willy-Wonka secondary character. “Veruca Salt… “*I* want an Oompa Loompa, Daddy…. GET ME AN OOMPA LOOMPA!!! Now!!!!”
Remember Nellie from Little House on the Prairie? She was an object of loathing and ridicule. Now she's PDA who needs accommodations.
I am pretty sure I would be diagnosed with “PDA” if I were a child today. And my middle child was just like me - but fortunately, I remembered being that child and having a strong desire for personal autonomy (which runs in my family, we are descended from violent hillbillies who had pervasive demand avoidance towards the guvmint revenues trying to tax their moonshine). So I did what my mom did - I picked my battles. Wearing plaid and stripes together with mismatched shoes, dying her hair odd colors, and in general being a weirdo was fine; but brushing teeth, wearing a seat belt, not hitting others, and doing homework were non-negotiable and I just accepted there would be a lot of screaming and protest that I would have to endure before each of these activities. The end result is my 20something daughter who has learned to channel her determination and strong personality into her studies and her career and is the youngest engineer in her company. We laugh about how completely awful she was as a child because she’s so amazing as an adult. She has ADHD and is on the autism spectrum, but we focused on her using her strengths (energy, quick mind, intense focus, not caring about the opinions of others) and while I was sympathetic to her sensory issues (I have a lot of them myself), she had to learn how to deal with them. People have truly lost sight of the concept that the purpose of childhood is for learning how to be an adult.
I love this comment. First of all, I'm also sure my son would have been diagnosed PDA had I been therapeutically minded. He was a big refuser. A refuser of sleep, a refuser of potty training -- eventually, we just had to duke it out. I had to square up to him in matters where to let him have his way would have harmed him in the long run, or were having a direct impact on our quality of life. He didn't even want to be born, and had to be pulled out of me with something resembling a crane. Other things -- like how he methodically broke into tiny pieces nearly every toy we gave him -- I had to let go. I hope my son turns out as well as your daughter!!
And though I was a mild-mannered child by comparison, stubborn and wayward definitely runs in my family too, so anyone "descended from violent hillbillies who had pervasive demand avoidance towards the guvmint revenues trying to tax their moonshine" is someone I want to be friends with! LOL
Haha, my daughter had to be literally sucked out of the birth canal with a vacuum extractor! We still joke about how long it takes her to get out the door every day…And she dismantled and otherwise destroyed every item she came into contact with, and every garment she wore for more than 5 minutes instantly became a torn filthy rag. She was known as “Hurricane Becca” for the path of destruction that followed her everywhere. Every thing from the moment she woke up (generally in a bad mood) until she (very reluctantly) went to bed was a battle! Some days I thought for sure she’d end up in reform school, but she is the most responsible 20something I know. I tell her that she was always mentally 36 years old and it must have angered her being treated like a child just because she was chronologically five years old!
THIS is what great parenting looks like. Coming from a place of selfless love and real empathy, teaching them how to successfully navigate the world is the #1 responsibility of a parent.
Just statistically, they will spend decades living in the world without us - not preparing them to thrive on their own is one of the most selfish, destructive things a parent can do.
Having a sensible mother who truly "gets" you is such a a huge advantage. It helps that personality traits are hereditary, so when our kids have them, it's not our first rodeo. Good job, Mom!
Back in the day, a lot of parents just assumed that the classroom nun or the parish priest was safe if not de facto infallible. Today that naivete is often applied to counselors and therapists. But not everybody with degrees hanging on the wall will help rather than harm a child, although some are helpful. Don't forget how crucial sane sensible loving parents are to child development as parents carry out the biblical admonition to "train up a child in the way that he should go."
Interesting point Susan -- unfortunately putting too much trust in the religious authorities led to a lot of terrible things too. Nothing can replace a sensible parent in a child's life.
> unfortunately putting too much trust in the religious authorities led to a lot of terrible things too.
On rare occasions, yes. Abuses by teachers or therapists are a lot more common; however, the MSM is a lot less interested in talking about those.
I really liked Abigail Shrier's first book, which I thought did important work in studying the social contagion aspect of trans identity. And hopefully, I'll like this one as well. But it also makes me nervous for personal reasons.
ADHD seems to be overdiagnosed in boys, but at the same time, it tends to be underdiagnosed in girls. No one even suggested I might have ADHD until I was 22, because I wasn't loud and disruptive. I wish I'd been diagnosed at a younger age, instead of spending my entire childhood feeling out of sync with other people, and having difficulty concentrating, for reasons that I couldn't even begin to explain. When you get diagnosed as an adult with a condition that you've had since childhood, you can't just go back and undo two decades of negativity from other people and negativity from yourself. Instead of, "My ADHD is really making it hard to concentrate on math," my mental perception of myself was, "I'm a selfish person. People are bending over backwards to give me extra help with math, and I can't even make myself pay attention to it." Sometimes I would say something that was socially inappropriate and other people, including adults, didn't understand that I really didn't understand what I'd done wrong. They'd think I had a malicious intent that I never had, and I'd withdraw more and more from other people, figuring that I'd rather be alone than have people think I was a bad person.
I don't want any little kid to have to grow up like that. And I'm concerned that this book might cause parents who are already skeptical about therapy to conclude that a young child, who really could benefit from an accurate diagnosis, doesn't need any psychological help and should just "learn to deal with it." I never "learned to deal with it" on my own. How could I, when I didn't even know what "it" was?
I have an acquaintance who is experiencing something similar, though she is older than 22, and she has a similar perspective to yours. But my worry is that things like being bad at math, being socially inappropriate, feeling out of sync or not being liked are all totally normal. So, so, so normal. Almost every person experiences that. Especially when you are a kid or teen. The thought of a kid being given speed -- which is what Adderall and Ritalin basically are -- instead of experiencing reality is truly worrying to me.
Also, the bad things that happened in the past are just that -- in the past. I was bullied, ostracised, was a foreigner who didn't speak the same language as my classmates, was alone a lot of the time. Decades of negativity, as you say. But none of those things are my reality now, and I don't think about them negatively at all anymore.
I’m not 22 now, just for the record; I’m 37. 🙂
I didn’t go into my whole list of symptoms because it’s a Substack comment, not an extensive medical history, and I’m *certainly* not saying that being bad at math is any kind of disorder. My point there was my inability to pay attention, not the subject. I was diagnosed after a full day of extensive testing, along with reports from my mother and my now-husband. I don’t know if I necessarily should have been medicated as a child, either, but it would have been immensely helpful to know there was a reason for my behavior that wasn’t being lazy, selfish, or just generally inadequate.
“Also, the bad things that happened in the past are just that -- in the past. I was bullied, ostracised, was a foreigner who didn't speak the same language as my classmates, was alone a lot of the time. Decades of negativity, as you say. But none of those things are my reality now, and I don't think about them negatively at all anymore.”
I’m not sure what your point is here. I don’t spend extensive time thinking about bad things in the past, but when the topic is kids and therapy and you’re someone who went through your childhood with an undiagnosed condition, of course you’re going to think about it then.
My question -- not necessarily in your case, which I don't know -- is what exactly is an "undiagnosed condition" and what is a circumstance, or just part of growing up?
When a kid has long-lasting problems with regulating their attention, and it’s causing them to lose points in school for what looks like careless errors, and these problems reoccur and reoccur no matter how hard the kid tries, I think it’s worth being evaluated for ADHD. As I said, I was diagnosed after extensive testing. I don’t think I should have been evaluated as a little kid, but I wish I’d been diagnosed sometime before high school.
There has to be a middle ground. I was diagnosed with ADD and Asperger's at 42, after many hours consulting with a psychologist and my mother. I was put on a very low dose of Ritalin which honestly changed my life. I was able to go back to school and hold a job, both of which had been a real challenge in the past. An earlier diagnosis and a little assistance would have helped a lot.
I think going on a low dose of Ritalin at 42 after much consultation, is totally reasonable and very different to schools forcing Ritalin, on pain of expulsion, on little boys and girls who are little older than toddlers, because they are deemed disruptive in schools that resemble prisons, by teachers with questionable motives. The crimes perpetrated by pharma on American children shame all of American institutions.
What schools are forcing Ritalin on pain of expulsion? That sounds unenforceable, and like a lawsuit waiting to happen.
Schools absolutely threaten expulsion and social services threaten removal of the child if a parent refuses to follow "medical advice," including a "diagnosis" of ADHD/ADD. I have a friend who at the time was a Swiss national living in the US and her French husband had to travel for business. Their son was born I believe in Kenya and he spent his first 5 years running in the bush with the warriors. He arrived in the US and this very active little boy was expected to sit still in a classroom. The abusers in the schools, along with the abusers in social services, told her she was going to medicate him or they would remove him. The meds messed him up. The same fascist tactics were gearing up on us with our son and I actually made plans to get him out-of-state. We finally managed to find a teacher who helped him settle enough into a classroom.
Oh, God, school. I had a B+ average in high school, because I had my mom to constantly bug me about whether I was doing homework. (Still had to drop one math class because I was failing it, though.) College wasn’t as awful as it could have been - I think I just barely had a C average - but I had a lot of papers turned in late or dashed off at the last minute. I also felt really embarrassed by not understanding some of the material and didn’t ask for help when I should have.
I did get into law school, but I was waitlisted first at the one school that eventually accepted me. (I think they decided to have mercy on me because it was a Catholic law school and I’d graduated from a Catholic high school in the area.) I failed one class there and didn’t pass the bar exam until my third try. Even on medication, I have a hard time writing cohesive essays on topics that I’m not extremely interested in.
Sorry, that was a lot of rambling just to say - I get how hard school can be when you’ve got different neurological conditions. 🙂 That’s so great that you were able to go back to school and hold a job. Neurotypical people don’t always realize how hard these things can be for us and how much even small amounts of medication can help.
So cool you made it through law school! I did studio art in college when I was young because I would drift away unless I was working with my hands. ADD, right? I finally learned how to study, take notes and write papers after I went back. The diagnosis I got helped my self-image no end--no longer was I simply lazy! Reading your comments has been a real pleasure.
The "meds" will help anyone focus and that's why they are rampant on college campus. It's similar to how anabolic steroids. will make anyone stronger. Your description of your grades and lack of interest in essays in high school and college sounds (neuro)typical of most people. I can speak for myself that my grades were so-so and I I really disliked essays, even of topics I liked. Probably why I didn't become a writer. Jack of all trades, master of none! There's room for us and most in my HS class (Catholic) were similar. We did have the few really smart ones who made straight A's and turned everything in on time, but that wasn't typical.
It’s not about “a dislike of essays,” it’s about organizational difficulties in writing that most people would have figured out how to overcome after four years in college (major: English and history) and three years of law school.
As I said in an earlier comment, I’m not listing all my symptoms and life story because it’s a Substack comment, not an extensive medical history. I understand the concern about ADHD being overdiagnosed, and being diagnosed based on little information, and kids being medicated. I don’t get why you think you know more about my brain - from Substack comments! - than I do, and than the psychiatrist who diagnosed me after extensive testing did. I don’t have anything to prove to you, and I’m done with this line of conversation.
It’s so good! I think it’s going to provoke a hysterical response however. So many people are so invested in this
Yes.
Raising two boys in the 90s and early 2000s was a walk through a pop-psychological mine field. Dodging pressure from peers, educational professionals, society in general to subject our precious kids to one “expert” after another. To let them label our eldest boy as this or that and then offer “treatment”.
It never felt right. So we resisted, sought wisdom, trusted God, prayed, and exercised wise parenting-the kind we experienced as children.
Both boys graduated from university. One is married and working in tech for a large company in the USA. The other is starting a business in Bali, Indonesia.
They’re not perfect but they have everything they need to be stellar adults. We watch from a distance, cheering them on, praying, and maintaining a respectful relationship with them.
Love this. Thank you.
Yup completely agree and I also know that I would start screaming “like, yeah, duh” before getting too far into Shrier’s book, although I am thankful she writes on the topics she does. I only got halfway through “Irreversible Damage” not because it wasn’t excellent and needed but because I didn’t need it at all.
I have watched this trend in horror since before my daughter was born both in society and with friends and family members. Like another poster said -don’t outsource your thinking. Except in the extreme circumstances of trauma i.e grief, PTSD, physical abuse etc (trauma is another word everyone uses for everything) but I mean real trauma, figure it out. That's the point!That’s life! It’s what makes us unique and strong too by the way. Not easy- but true. What’s everyone looking for? I do believe it’s some sort of sanitized perfection. I am the one to run guard for my daughter as long as there is a breath in my body - no one else! My husband provides a final say for her as long as there is a breath in his body - no one else! I have a hunch our daughter finds it quite comforting.
Talking too much makes people crazy! I think it used to be called wallowing. Loving, simple, plain talk followed by action, doing, working, playing, striving to challenge yourself is the road to seeing things eventually come around with our feelings and difficulties.
Yes. To all of this.
Excellent article! I saw this trend a lot when I started my family (early 2000s) It seemed to coincide with the whole attachment parenting movement, which, tbh, I really liked. There were all kinds of books and experts supporting this new kind pf parenting and it seemed to be a real zeitgeist of that period. As a Gen X kid, who'd been raised with a very hands-off, sometimes very strict approach, I'm wondering how much of this more loving, connected, gentle parenting was a backlash to our own upbringing, which, while being less complicated, could also be rigid and unloving. Like any new movement, this whole new parenting approach (showing kids more love, respect, gving more autonomy) was seductive and seemed to offer the magic solution. We wanted closer relationships with our kids than what we'd had with our own parents. However, I could see how this approach could be taken to extremes and result in spoilt kids and mayhem at home. I personally found my own balance of firm but loving when my kids were still small. Not as strict as my own upbringing, but definitely with some rules and boundaries. Now my 3 kids are all young adults and great people to be around. I think the main problem nowadays is that there are so many approaches, philosophies, experts and books out there that many of us have stopped trusting our own instincts. As another commenter here has already mentioned, we need to stop 'outsourcing our thinking' So much of parenting is trial and error and we usually find our own way, without these so-called experts.
Yes!! My personal belief is that we are born with those instincts and somehow society has convinced us that they are wrong.
Slightly tangential to your comment, but re: attachment parenting -- i think that it's absolutely great for babies. But I've seen a lot of moms have trouble letting go of that early dependency stage, which I get because that's the best feeling in the world. In terms of balance, I saw a Tweet that said "gentle parenting is for gentle kids" -- and that's pretty much how I see it!
After teaching children gymnastics for 35 years I can affirm that today's "mothers" are a beset group.
When.I started, the kids who came in were naturally strong and adventurous. Slowly they became more timorous -- and fatter. Now, most, on arrival, cannot support their own weight or control their center of gravity. (At any one time, my company has 4,500 -5,000 of these, so a large sample.)
At the same time, since gymnastics is individual and progressive (i.e. you either did the skill or you did not; you are alone on the equipment so it's all on you), There is lots of failure to deal with. The kids can handle this but many mothers cannot, leading to all sorts of mind games on/with their kids. Soon the kids succumb or tune their mothers out. They are separating from her anyway starting at 2 1/2 or so so this fits the kids' agenda.
The plus is that the kids/parents who survive the winnowing of gymnastics and mommy games do well, very well personally, educationally and professionally. Their parents, too, are gratified. So, although the phenomenon that Shrier describes is real, it is not universal.
This is very, very interesting. I think I would have trouble hiding my frustration with controlling or meddling mothers if I were doing your job. I'm very glad to hear you say that it's not universal -- at least!
I was the quintessential "last kid picked for every team." Looking back, I think that I would have greatly benefitted from a more laid-back approach to physical education. I might have come away enjoying certain physical activities instead of having bad memories of gym classes that happened well over a half century ago.
"Pathological demand avoidance", back in sane times, this was just called children being spoiled.
I’ve literally just posted a Note that Abigail has appeared on the JRE on Tuesday.
https://open.spotify.com/episode/5uuOkSoOPd6dCrc52PzVDG?si=iZ1bh5D6R42fDcW0IpVGCw&context=spotify%3Ashow%3A4rOoJ6Egrf8K2IrywzwOMk
Great minds etc!
Absolutely agree. Those books were written by many an ‘expert’ straight out of University and from people that have never even had children! We have over diagnosed a whole generation who now have no life coping skills as a result.
Exactly. I don't want much more for my son than he be a capable young man who can handle himself. From that, a good life will most likely flow.
Stop parents! Read this before parenting another day!