So true! I was raised with discipline and consequences. I raised my sons the same way. As adults now in their 30s, they are confidant, contributing members of society. Today's society is devolving not just because of bad or lack of parenting but even our institutions (schools, etc.) do not set boundaries any longer. Society requires civility to survive and we are heading toward a true life Mad Maxx film which is utter chaos.
The most important thing my parents did for me growing up was allowing me to learn how to bend without breaking. Adversity truly is the primer of resilience.
Today's helicoptering, continuously "good job!"-ing parents are kid-whipped and terrified of their own spoiled offspring. This sad state has been brought about by the psychological profession, particularly those child psychologists who are overcompensated employees of school districts. Seldom has there ever been such a hotbed of pseudo-scientific aca-blather run by pompous over-schooled cozeners.
“I find myself screaming internally: “how is this a surprise to anyone?!?’”
Slightly going off on a tangent with this comment, but that quote describes my frustration in so many areas.
People rarely think for themselves. They need experts to do a tonne of research to verify the obvious.
How much time does this waste? How much time carrying the burden of bad decisions because we couldn’t trust our own brains to do the sums.
Anyone who’d done the tiniest bit of thinking could see that relying on experts – whose only evidence is flaky soft-science – to help us deal with bad stuff.
This therapy culture is, what, 50 years old? Was absolutely everyone in the past traumatised permanently? You know, those peasants, slaves, soldiers? All permanently fucked up?
No they weren’t. Some, sure, but they were dealing with far more than most people today.
Don’t outsource your thinking! Not only is it dangerous but it’s dehumanising too.
The rise of “PDA” is one of the most shocking things I’ve seen, honestly. It’s terrifying to think of what the world is going to be like with these unbelievably self-centered children as adults. These subservient parents spending 24/7 “heroically” bowing and scraping to these horrifically unlead, feral children is possibly one of the most long-term damaging things I’ve seen. They’re creating an entire generation of manipulative narcissists who have been trained to completely melt down if they don’t get every shred of their way.
“But there’s a DiAgNoSiS....”.
“You have to accommodate my child’s need for ‘autonomy’.... (screw the rest of the world’s autonomy. of course.)
God help anyone who has to deal with these families, and God help these children 20 years from now.
Back in the day, a lot of parents just assumed that the classroom nun or the parish priest was safe if not de facto infallible. Today that naivete is often applied to counselors and therapists. But not everybody with degrees hanging on the wall will help rather than harm a child, although some are helpful. Don't forget how crucial sane sensible loving parents are to child development as parents carry out the biblical admonition to "train up a child in the way that he should go."
I really liked Abigail Shrier's first book, which I thought did important work in studying the social contagion aspect of trans identity. And hopefully, I'll like this one as well. But it also makes me nervous for personal reasons.
ADHD seems to be overdiagnosed in boys, but at the same time, it tends to be underdiagnosed in girls. No one even suggested I might have ADHD until I was 22, because I wasn't loud and disruptive. I wish I'd been diagnosed at a younger age, instead of spending my entire childhood feeling out of sync with other people, and having difficulty concentrating, for reasons that I couldn't even begin to explain. When you get diagnosed as an adult with a condition that you've had since childhood, you can't just go back and undo two decades of negativity from other people and negativity from yourself. Instead of, "My ADHD is really making it hard to concentrate on math," my mental perception of myself was, "I'm a selfish person. People are bending over backwards to give me extra help with math, and I can't even make myself pay attention to it." Sometimes I would say something that was socially inappropriate and other people, including adults, didn't understand that I really didn't understand what I'd done wrong. They'd think I had a malicious intent that I never had, and I'd withdraw more and more from other people, figuring that I'd rather be alone than have people think I was a bad person.
I don't want any little kid to have to grow up like that. And I'm concerned that this book might cause parents who are already skeptical about therapy to conclude that a young child, who really could benefit from an accurate diagnosis, doesn't need any psychological help and should just "learn to deal with it." I never "learned to deal with it" on my own. How could I, when I didn't even know what "it" was?
Raising two boys in the 90s and early 2000s was a walk through a pop-psychological mine field. Dodging pressure from peers, educational professionals, society in general to subject our precious kids to one “expert” after another. To let them label our eldest boy as this or that and then offer “treatment”.
It never felt right. So we resisted, sought wisdom, trusted God, prayed, and exercised wise parenting-the kind we experienced as children.
Both boys graduated from university. One is married and working in tech for a large company in the USA. The other is starting a business in Bali, Indonesia.
They’re not perfect but they have everything they need to be stellar adults. We watch from a distance, cheering them on, praying, and maintaining a respectful relationship with them.
Yup completely agree and I also know that I would start screaming “like, yeah, duh” before getting too far into Shrier’s book, although I am thankful she writes on the topics she does. I only got halfway through “Irreversible Damage” not because it wasn’t excellent and needed but because I didn’t need it at all.
I have watched this trend in horror since before my daughter was born both in society and with friends and family members. Like another poster said -don’t outsource your thinking. Except in the extreme circumstances of trauma i.e grief, PTSD, physical abuse etc (trauma is another word everyone uses for everything) but I mean real trauma, figure it out. That's the point!That’s life! It’s what makes us unique and strong too by the way. Not easy- but true. What’s everyone looking for? I do believe it’s some sort of sanitized perfection. I am the one to run guard for my daughter as long as there is a breath in my body - no one else! My husband provides a final say for her as long as there is a breath in his body - no one else! I have a hunch our daughter finds it quite comforting.
Talking too much makes people crazy! I think it used to be called wallowing. Loving, simple, plain talk followed by action, doing, working, playing, striving to challenge yourself is the road to seeing things eventually come around with our feelings and difficulties.
Excellent article! I saw this trend a lot when I started my family (early 2000s) It seemed to coincide with the whole attachment parenting movement, which, tbh, I really liked. There were all kinds of books and experts supporting this new kind pf parenting and it seemed to be a real zeitgeist of that period. As a Gen X kid, who'd been raised with a very hands-off, sometimes very strict approach, I'm wondering how much of this more loving, connected, gentle parenting was a backlash to our own upbringing, which, while being less complicated, could also be rigid and unloving. Like any new movement, this whole new parenting approach (showing kids more love, respect, gving more autonomy) was seductive and seemed to offer the magic solution. We wanted closer relationships with our kids than what we'd had with our own parents. However, I could see how this approach could be taken to extremes and result in spoilt kids and mayhem at home. I personally found my own balance of firm but loving when my kids were still small. Not as strict as my own upbringing, but definitely with some rules and boundaries. Now my 3 kids are all young adults and great people to be around. I think the main problem nowadays is that there are so many approaches, philosophies, experts and books out there that many of us have stopped trusting our own instincts. As another commenter here has already mentioned, we need to stop 'outsourcing our thinking' So much of parenting is trial and error and we usually find our own way, without these so-called experts.
After teaching children gymnastics for 35 years I can affirm that today's "mothers" are a beset group.
When.I started, the kids who came in were naturally strong and adventurous. Slowly they became more timorous -- and fatter. Now, most, on arrival, cannot support their own weight or control their center of gravity. (At any one time, my company has 4,500 -5,000 of these, so a large sample.)
At the same time, since gymnastics is individual and progressive (i.e. you either did the skill or you did not; you are alone on the equipment so it's all on you), There is lots of failure to deal with. The kids can handle this but many mothers cannot, leading to all sorts of mind games on/with their kids. Soon the kids succumb or tune their mothers out. They are separating from her anyway starting at 2 1/2 or so so this fits the kids' agenda.
The plus is that the kids/parents who survive the winnowing of gymnastics and mommy games do well, very well personally, educationally and professionally. Their parents, too, are gratified. So, although the phenomenon that Shrier describes is real, it is not universal.
My own take: its maybe because of the decline of Masculine force in family and cultures across the world...A balance is needed between male-female virtues and I think society now downplays or even trashes any male virtues (discipline, strength, 'scolding', hell sometimes even spanking').
My mom was like earth--gentle, kind, paitent. My dad was love and fire.
So I had a great balanced upbringing.
I'm sure most people of older generation had a similar experience. It produces maybe not that succesful, but on the whole happy and well adjusted kids.
Absolutely agree. Those books were written by many an ‘expert’ straight out of University and from people that have never even had children! We have over diagnosed a whole generation who now have no life coping skills as a result.
So true! I was raised with discipline and consequences. I raised my sons the same way. As adults now in their 30s, they are confidant, contributing members of society. Today's society is devolving not just because of bad or lack of parenting but even our institutions (schools, etc.) do not set boundaries any longer. Society requires civility to survive and we are heading toward a true life Mad Maxx film which is utter chaos.
The most important thing my parents did for me growing up was allowing me to learn how to bend without breaking. Adversity truly is the primer of resilience.
Today's helicoptering, continuously "good job!"-ing parents are kid-whipped and terrified of their own spoiled offspring. This sad state has been brought about by the psychological profession, particularly those child psychologists who are overcompensated employees of school districts. Seldom has there ever been such a hotbed of pseudo-scientific aca-blather run by pompous over-schooled cozeners.
“I find myself screaming internally: “how is this a surprise to anyone?!?’”
Slightly going off on a tangent with this comment, but that quote describes my frustration in so many areas.
People rarely think for themselves. They need experts to do a tonne of research to verify the obvious.
How much time does this waste? How much time carrying the burden of bad decisions because we couldn’t trust our own brains to do the sums.
Anyone who’d done the tiniest bit of thinking could see that relying on experts – whose only evidence is flaky soft-science – to help us deal with bad stuff.
This therapy culture is, what, 50 years old? Was absolutely everyone in the past traumatised permanently? You know, those peasants, slaves, soldiers? All permanently fucked up?
No they weren’t. Some, sure, but they were dealing with far more than most people today.
Don’t outsource your thinking! Not only is it dangerous but it’s dehumanising too.
The rise of “PDA” is one of the most shocking things I’ve seen, honestly. It’s terrifying to think of what the world is going to be like with these unbelievably self-centered children as adults. These subservient parents spending 24/7 “heroically” bowing and scraping to these horrifically unlead, feral children is possibly one of the most long-term damaging things I’ve seen. They’re creating an entire generation of manipulative narcissists who have been trained to completely melt down if they don’t get every shred of their way.
“But there’s a DiAgNoSiS....”.
“You have to accommodate my child’s need for ‘autonomy’.... (screw the rest of the world’s autonomy. of course.)
God help anyone who has to deal with these families, and God help these children 20 years from now.
Back in the day, a lot of parents just assumed that the classroom nun or the parish priest was safe if not de facto infallible. Today that naivete is often applied to counselors and therapists. But not everybody with degrees hanging on the wall will help rather than harm a child, although some are helpful. Don't forget how crucial sane sensible loving parents are to child development as parents carry out the biblical admonition to "train up a child in the way that he should go."
I really liked Abigail Shrier's first book, which I thought did important work in studying the social contagion aspect of trans identity. And hopefully, I'll like this one as well. But it also makes me nervous for personal reasons.
ADHD seems to be overdiagnosed in boys, but at the same time, it tends to be underdiagnosed in girls. No one even suggested I might have ADHD until I was 22, because I wasn't loud and disruptive. I wish I'd been diagnosed at a younger age, instead of spending my entire childhood feeling out of sync with other people, and having difficulty concentrating, for reasons that I couldn't even begin to explain. When you get diagnosed as an adult with a condition that you've had since childhood, you can't just go back and undo two decades of negativity from other people and negativity from yourself. Instead of, "My ADHD is really making it hard to concentrate on math," my mental perception of myself was, "I'm a selfish person. People are bending over backwards to give me extra help with math, and I can't even make myself pay attention to it." Sometimes I would say something that was socially inappropriate and other people, including adults, didn't understand that I really didn't understand what I'd done wrong. They'd think I had a malicious intent that I never had, and I'd withdraw more and more from other people, figuring that I'd rather be alone than have people think I was a bad person.
I don't want any little kid to have to grow up like that. And I'm concerned that this book might cause parents who are already skeptical about therapy to conclude that a young child, who really could benefit from an accurate diagnosis, doesn't need any psychological help and should just "learn to deal with it." I never "learned to deal with it" on my own. How could I, when I didn't even know what "it" was?
It’s so good! I think it’s going to provoke a hysterical response however. So many people are so invested in this
Raising two boys in the 90s and early 2000s was a walk through a pop-psychological mine field. Dodging pressure from peers, educational professionals, society in general to subject our precious kids to one “expert” after another. To let them label our eldest boy as this or that and then offer “treatment”.
It never felt right. So we resisted, sought wisdom, trusted God, prayed, and exercised wise parenting-the kind we experienced as children.
Both boys graduated from university. One is married and working in tech for a large company in the USA. The other is starting a business in Bali, Indonesia.
They’re not perfect but they have everything they need to be stellar adults. We watch from a distance, cheering them on, praying, and maintaining a respectful relationship with them.
Yup completely agree and I also know that I would start screaming “like, yeah, duh” before getting too far into Shrier’s book, although I am thankful she writes on the topics she does. I only got halfway through “Irreversible Damage” not because it wasn’t excellent and needed but because I didn’t need it at all.
I have watched this trend in horror since before my daughter was born both in society and with friends and family members. Like another poster said -don’t outsource your thinking. Except in the extreme circumstances of trauma i.e grief, PTSD, physical abuse etc (trauma is another word everyone uses for everything) but I mean real trauma, figure it out. That's the point!That’s life! It’s what makes us unique and strong too by the way. Not easy- but true. What’s everyone looking for? I do believe it’s some sort of sanitized perfection. I am the one to run guard for my daughter as long as there is a breath in my body - no one else! My husband provides a final say for her as long as there is a breath in his body - no one else! I have a hunch our daughter finds it quite comforting.
Talking too much makes people crazy! I think it used to be called wallowing. Loving, simple, plain talk followed by action, doing, working, playing, striving to challenge yourself is the road to seeing things eventually come around with our feelings and difficulties.
Excellent article! I saw this trend a lot when I started my family (early 2000s) It seemed to coincide with the whole attachment parenting movement, which, tbh, I really liked. There were all kinds of books and experts supporting this new kind pf parenting and it seemed to be a real zeitgeist of that period. As a Gen X kid, who'd been raised with a very hands-off, sometimes very strict approach, I'm wondering how much of this more loving, connected, gentle parenting was a backlash to our own upbringing, which, while being less complicated, could also be rigid and unloving. Like any new movement, this whole new parenting approach (showing kids more love, respect, gving more autonomy) was seductive and seemed to offer the magic solution. We wanted closer relationships with our kids than what we'd had with our own parents. However, I could see how this approach could be taken to extremes and result in spoilt kids and mayhem at home. I personally found my own balance of firm but loving when my kids were still small. Not as strict as my own upbringing, but definitely with some rules and boundaries. Now my 3 kids are all young adults and great people to be around. I think the main problem nowadays is that there are so many approaches, philosophies, experts and books out there that many of us have stopped trusting our own instincts. As another commenter here has already mentioned, we need to stop 'outsourcing our thinking' So much of parenting is trial and error and we usually find our own way, without these so-called experts.
After teaching children gymnastics for 35 years I can affirm that today's "mothers" are a beset group.
When.I started, the kids who came in were naturally strong and adventurous. Slowly they became more timorous -- and fatter. Now, most, on arrival, cannot support their own weight or control their center of gravity. (At any one time, my company has 4,500 -5,000 of these, so a large sample.)
At the same time, since gymnastics is individual and progressive (i.e. you either did the skill or you did not; you are alone on the equipment so it's all on you), There is lots of failure to deal with. The kids can handle this but many mothers cannot, leading to all sorts of mind games on/with their kids. Soon the kids succumb or tune their mothers out. They are separating from her anyway starting at 2 1/2 or so so this fits the kids' agenda.
The plus is that the kids/parents who survive the winnowing of gymnastics and mommy games do well, very well personally, educationally and professionally. Their parents, too, are gratified. So, although the phenomenon that Shrier describes is real, it is not universal.
"Pathological demand avoidance", back in sane times, this was just called children being spoiled.
Great piece. Looking forward to reading the book.
My own take: its maybe because of the decline of Masculine force in family and cultures across the world...A balance is needed between male-female virtues and I think society now downplays or even trashes any male virtues (discipline, strength, 'scolding', hell sometimes even spanking').
My mom was like earth--gentle, kind, paitent. My dad was love and fire.
So I had a great balanced upbringing.
I'm sure most people of older generation had a similar experience. It produces maybe not that succesful, but on the whole happy and well adjusted kids.
A
I’ve literally just posted a Note that Abigail has appeared on the JRE on Tuesday.
https://open.spotify.com/episode/5uuOkSoOPd6dCrc52PzVDG?si=iZ1bh5D6R42fDcW0IpVGCw&context=spotify%3Ashow%3A4rOoJ6Egrf8K2IrywzwOMk
Absolutely agree. Those books were written by many an ‘expert’ straight out of University and from people that have never even had children! We have over diagnosed a whole generation who now have no life coping skills as a result.