As an NYU college student and resident of Greenwich Village throughout the 80s, I may have bumped into your dad at some point. :-) I completely share your view of the early Madonna - I adored her - bouncy and fresh, taking some aspects of the punk fashion and making it fun - she was strong but so feminine; to me, early Madonna was a wonderful icon of our generation.
She seemed to be completely self-directed, something I truly admired. She was very much her own person - she dressed and acted as she pleased, and she seemed truly happy with herself. She wasn't bitter and demanding, she wasn't resentful and bruised. She simply "believed she could, so she did." Watching her in the earliest videos, I always thought it seemed the camera just caught her in her natural state - dancing and singing to please herself - even if delighted that others might watch.
As a young woman of her same age, I knew how unusual that was. Our mothers fought hard in the 60s and 70s for some fundamental measures of equality, and they often seemed to feel forced to choose between being feminine/attractive vs being strong/successful. A woman of my mom's age once told me her most oppressive moment was a man telling her she'd be so much more prettier if she would just smile. I remember thinking that it seemed completely reasonable that happy people were more attractive, but I knew better than to say that.
Madonna in the early days, however, was strong, independent & successful AND feminine, attractive & happy.
But soon, she began to lose the fun/carefree aspect that made it all work so flawlessly. She became strangely demanding of the attention, demanding of obedience, demanding that she be seen as hard-core-sexual. Bitterness marred the picture as she became more and more desperate. Her idea of attractiveness turned quickly into something grotesque - she was no longer the bouncy pied piper, she was the lunging crone. Instead of sparking delight and curiosity, she began to stir feelings of revulsion.
So much of popular culture has lost (maybe destroyed) the idea of carefree, light, bouncy fun. There is no joy. There is no beauty. Absolutely everything is wrought with ugliness. Even when none is intended, anything we say or do will most certainly be interpreted by someone as hateful, harmful, ugly, violent, privileged, offensive, etc. Strangely, the *least* vilified are the people who embrace this ugliness - rappers, truly violent protestors, screaming authoritarians, dystopian artists, etc.
I cannot fathom why we, as a society, would choose this path.
Cannot say that I shared your early enthusiasm for Madonna, as upon first encountering her I thought, "here is a woman who understands marketing!"
However, your observation: So much of popular culture has lost (maybe destroyed) the idea of carefree, light, bouncy fun. There is no joy. There is no beauty. Absolutely everything is wrought with ugliness. Even when none is intended, anything we say or do will most certainly be interpreted by someone as hateful, harmful, ugly, violent, privileged, offensive, etc. Strangely, the *least* vilified are the people who embrace this ugliness - rappers, truly violent protestors, screaming authoritarians, dystopian artists, etc.
I cannot fathom why we, as a society, would choose this path.
________________
This is important. We are drenched in ugliness, presumably, at this point, from the inside out. Hard to turn away from it when it is ubiquitous. But one must try.
The reason human women live so long past our childbearing years is because our wisdom is important to the survival of our group, not our sex appeal. Natural selection and/or God don't make mistakes. Enjoy each season of life for what it offers.
It is with some trepidation that I admit to also hanging around in the Grassroots Tavern in 1983 when I was an art student. I miss it though I don’t miss coming home with smokey clothes. Well, you can’t go home again.
Anyway, this is spot on, and horrible. I stopped paying attention long ago, but wow. Could she have dementia? Seeing the video in the bodega reminds me of those videos of people trashing fast food restaurants.
It seemed like such innocent, transgressive fun back in the 80s. And then it started taking itself too seriously. What have we wrought?
"a large chunk of the human esthetic spirit has gone necrotic" is an excellent way of describing it. And it doesn't sound like hyperbole to me. A+
I think rap may be have been the most open of all the pores, but if you look at "artists" 🤮🤮🤮 like that skinny, useless weirdo (not in an interesting way) "Machine Gun Kelly" etc etc they also seem pretty f-ing demonic to me.
This turn to ugliness in the Western world is the unfortunate take of the Nihilist Left from the writings of Nietzsche. Specifically, they wanted to transform themselves into Ubermensch (superman), with the ability to give new meaning to their empty lives after the "Death of God." To do so, they rejected everything that came before, everything they considered to be "bourgeois," everything the rest of us normal people consider beautiful.
Tom Wolfe (May God eternally bless his soul) was a genius and one of the most astute commentators on the New Left/Existentialists/Post-modernists who entrenched themselves into the old Left and hijacked the term "liberal" for themselves. In a chapter of his brilliant collection of essays titled "Hooking Up" he explains how the more something turns the stomach of the average person, the more the elite consider that to be a thing of beauty. The entire point of Nietzschean Nihilism and Post-modernism is to reject and destroy everything that came before, and traditional concepts of beauty are at the top of their list.
Wolfe explains it best "Art worldlings regard popularity as skill's live-in slut. Popularity meant shallowness. Rejection by the public meant depth. And truly hostile rejection very likely meant greatness."
It is hard to imagine anyone will ever surpass Tom Wolfe's commentary on the Nihilist elites who are currently defecating over every great achievement of the West, and there are many indeed!
One of my favorites on YouTube, "WhatsHerFace", recently described Madonna this way: "She looks like that thing you see at the end of your bed during sleep paralysis."
I don’t you very well Jenny but i sure do like you....it’s interesting the timing of this piece...I sense that I have crossed this hidden line...a line that I didn’t know existed until I crossed it...a line once noticed cannot be unseen...there is now a need to prepare for my transition...this is not morbid or heavy, it’s just the reality of my place in time...I’m seeing things differently, I’m feeling things deeply...my awareness is keen...I saw these pictures of Madonna recently and I thought about her pain...the growing unstoppable hole that is enveloping her...I can’t tell you how Grateful not to be her!...to be here talking with you, finishing strong, embracing the Wonders that enhance a smile or being thrilled by words that illuminate one’s Heart...
Totally agree. While I do appreciate her early music, there was always something deliberately transgressive about her. As if pushing boundaries, rather than edifying or enlightening or encouraging people, was really what it was all about. This kind of attitude can only lead you into dark places, I think. Her example certainly seems to lead one to that conclusion.
I totally agree. Ageing is never going to be easy for a lot of women but there are advantages - more empathy, being embraced for who you are rather than how you look, not being perceived as a threat, admission into a much more accepting social sphere and, dare I say it, greater wisdom. If you’re destroyed by your fading looks, you were prioritising the wrong things in life.
I've noticed something weird with films and TV lately when it comes to women and ageing. In the series "Expats" Nicole Kidman and her bestie (both well over 50) have young children, talk about being on birth control, and about having more kids. It was hard to watch. Then in "The Miracle Club" Kathy Bates' character has young kids too. She's in her 70s. What is up with that? If we pretend we're young, we are? We're the first ones who are gonna beat the system?
It's so hard to watch isn't it. The later Bridget Jones films are some of the most egregious examples.
I also remember watching this indie film a few years ago where Rachel Weisz and Rachel McAdams are lovers who are meant to have known each other from school. But, er, Weisz (as attractive as she is) is very obviously quite a bit older than McAdams.
I also thought Ryan Gosling was a bizarre choice as Ken in the Barbie movie. While he looks great for his age, he is clearly not a 20-something surfer dude full of youthful vitality -- he is a rugged handsome guy in his 40s. Even Margot Robbie (though a decade younger than Gosling) felt too old to play Barbie.
Madonna back in the day was a powerful blend of artistry and substance. Songs like "Papa Don't Preach" and "La Isla Bonita" are timeless. Even the controversial "Like A Prayer" holds its own, which is why choral covers of the song have become popular in recent years
Alas, Madonna failed to grow and mature as she aged. A young woman feeling the full force of sexuality can be attractive and even seductive. That same woman being the same way thirty years on is nothing but a caricature of her younger self.
Artists should grow and mature as they embrace their art. When they reject growth and maturity they betray their art.
For years I wondered why I started obsessing over women. I just found out several weeks ago about all the hidden messages I've most likely viewed through TV/music videos. In Jan 2020 I turned away from my gay lifestyle. I'm very certain today that it had a lot to do w the song, Like a Virgin by Madonna. I know the fault lies in me. It's just nice to understand so much more these days. I appreciate all truth. Ty
This is interesting. I would love for people who consciously decided to stop partaking in gay culture/lifestyle or who gave up on pursuing same-sex encounters or relationships to do some long-form essays explaining their journeys.
These types of experiences and feelings (deciding to reject one's sexuality or feeling uncomfortable with how it manifests) are still a major taboo in our society, even within mainstream conservatism.
The years of our lives go faster than we realize when we are young. One day we wake up and realize that we are not only no longer young, but no longer middle aged either. Some, like Nancy Pelosi, do a pretty good job of trying to hide this reality, but all of the Botox in the world cannot hide the fact that Nancy Pelosi is old. And all of Pelosi's smug self-assurance cannot hide the fact that she will not live forever. While she might have convinced the most gullible among us about her fidelity to her faith, God is fully aware of her advocacy for such things as partial birth abortions, and one suspects that her eternal destination will, in the absence of sincere repentance, be considerably less comfortable than the mansions and private planes that she is accustomed to. Not to pick on Pelosi but I know more about her than I do about Madonna who has only been on the outer outskirts of my radar screen.
I strongly disagree that Pelosi does a good job hiding her age. She seems utterly non compos mentis to me, quite deranged actually. She's clearly hopped up on some kind of goof ball! 🤣
There's a deeper thread here I've been scratching at for a while and might end up turning into a post myself eventually: we live in a world that paradoxically cheers "change" while simultaneously denouncing it. Your "truth" must remain your truth forever. There can be no growth, no evolution, no changing your mind after discovering new information. If you start waving a freak flag, you are required to keep waving it now, lest you be denounced as a sellout has-been hypocrite. The world Madonna lives in is one where she now *can't* stop, and can't even tone it down, because for her to do so would be to somehow deny what she has claimed as her truth. So she'll keep destroying her body and putting her tongue on people until she dies on stage.
As an NYU college student and resident of Greenwich Village throughout the 80s, I may have bumped into your dad at some point. :-) I completely share your view of the early Madonna - I adored her - bouncy and fresh, taking some aspects of the punk fashion and making it fun - she was strong but so feminine; to me, early Madonna was a wonderful icon of our generation.
She seemed to be completely self-directed, something I truly admired. She was very much her own person - she dressed and acted as she pleased, and she seemed truly happy with herself. She wasn't bitter and demanding, she wasn't resentful and bruised. She simply "believed she could, so she did." Watching her in the earliest videos, I always thought it seemed the camera just caught her in her natural state - dancing and singing to please herself - even if delighted that others might watch.
As a young woman of her same age, I knew how unusual that was. Our mothers fought hard in the 60s and 70s for some fundamental measures of equality, and they often seemed to feel forced to choose between being feminine/attractive vs being strong/successful. A woman of my mom's age once told me her most oppressive moment was a man telling her she'd be so much more prettier if she would just smile. I remember thinking that it seemed completely reasonable that happy people were more attractive, but I knew better than to say that.
Madonna in the early days, however, was strong, independent & successful AND feminine, attractive & happy.
But soon, she began to lose the fun/carefree aspect that made it all work so flawlessly. She became strangely demanding of the attention, demanding of obedience, demanding that she be seen as hard-core-sexual. Bitterness marred the picture as she became more and more desperate. Her idea of attractiveness turned quickly into something grotesque - she was no longer the bouncy pied piper, she was the lunging crone. Instead of sparking delight and curiosity, she began to stir feelings of revulsion.
So much of popular culture has lost (maybe destroyed) the idea of carefree, light, bouncy fun. There is no joy. There is no beauty. Absolutely everything is wrought with ugliness. Even when none is intended, anything we say or do will most certainly be interpreted by someone as hateful, harmful, ugly, violent, privileged, offensive, etc. Strangely, the *least* vilified are the people who embrace this ugliness - rappers, truly violent protestors, screaming authoritarians, dystopian artists, etc.
I cannot fathom why we, as a society, would choose this path.
Your comment is insightful and beautifully written. Please post substack address (if none, start one?).
Cannot say that I shared your early enthusiasm for Madonna, as upon first encountering her I thought, "here is a woman who understands marketing!"
However, your observation: So much of popular culture has lost (maybe destroyed) the idea of carefree, light, bouncy fun. There is no joy. There is no beauty. Absolutely everything is wrought with ugliness. Even when none is intended, anything we say or do will most certainly be interpreted by someone as hateful, harmful, ugly, violent, privileged, offensive, etc. Strangely, the *least* vilified are the people who embrace this ugliness - rappers, truly violent protestors, screaming authoritarians, dystopian artists, etc.
I cannot fathom why we, as a society, would choose this path.
________________
This is important. We are drenched in ugliness, presumably, at this point, from the inside out. Hard to turn away from it when it is ubiquitous. But one must try.
Madonna is a subversive instrument, not a self directed ‘artist’...
@Thoughtful Reader: this is perfect.
The reason human women live so long past our childbearing years is because our wisdom is important to the survival of our group, not our sex appeal. Natural selection and/or God don't make mistakes. Enjoy each season of life for what it offers.
That sums it up very nicely
It is with some trepidation that I admit to also hanging around in the Grassroots Tavern in 1983 when I was an art student. I miss it though I don’t miss coming home with smokey clothes. Well, you can’t go home again.
Anyway, this is spot on, and horrible. I stopped paying attention long ago, but wow. Could she have dementia? Seeing the video in the bodega reminds me of those videos of people trashing fast food restaurants.
It seemed like such innocent, transgressive fun back in the 80s. And then it started taking itself too seriously. What have we wrought?
What have we wrought indeed.
This'll sound like hyperbole, but I really mean it: a large chunk of the human esthetic spirit has gone necrotic, and rap music is the gangrene.
"a large chunk of the human esthetic spirit has gone necrotic" is an excellent way of describing it. And it doesn't sound like hyperbole to me. A+
I think rap may be have been the most open of all the pores, but if you look at "artists" 🤮🤮🤮 like that skinny, useless weirdo (not in an interesting way) "Machine Gun Kelly" etc etc they also seem pretty f-ing demonic to me.
jamie b.--I'm copying that to my list of clever quotes I like to open up and read from time to time.
This turn to ugliness in the Western world is the unfortunate take of the Nihilist Left from the writings of Nietzsche. Specifically, they wanted to transform themselves into Ubermensch (superman), with the ability to give new meaning to their empty lives after the "Death of God." To do so, they rejected everything that came before, everything they considered to be "bourgeois," everything the rest of us normal people consider beautiful.
Tom Wolfe (May God eternally bless his soul) was a genius and one of the most astute commentators on the New Left/Existentialists/Post-modernists who entrenched themselves into the old Left and hijacked the term "liberal" for themselves. In a chapter of his brilliant collection of essays titled "Hooking Up" he explains how the more something turns the stomach of the average person, the more the elite consider that to be a thing of beauty. The entire point of Nietzschean Nihilism and Post-modernism is to reject and destroy everything that came before, and traditional concepts of beauty are at the top of their list.
Wolfe explains it best "Art worldlings regard popularity as skill's live-in slut. Popularity meant shallowness. Rejection by the public meant depth. And truly hostile rejection very likely meant greatness."
It is hard to imagine anyone will ever surpass Tom Wolfe's commentary on the Nihilist elites who are currently defecating over every great achievement of the West, and there are many indeed!
One of my favorites on YouTube, "WhatsHerFace", recently described Madonna this way: "She looks like that thing you see at the end of your bed during sleep paralysis."
That is a bloody great description of her. 😂😂😂
Imagine it crawling up the bed to lick your face. Brrrrrr!
I don’t you very well Jenny but i sure do like you....it’s interesting the timing of this piece...I sense that I have crossed this hidden line...a line that I didn’t know existed until I crossed it...a line once noticed cannot be unseen...there is now a need to prepare for my transition...this is not morbid or heavy, it’s just the reality of my place in time...I’m seeing things differently, I’m feeling things deeply...my awareness is keen...I saw these pictures of Madonna recently and I thought about her pain...the growing unstoppable hole that is enveloping her...I can’t tell you how Grateful not to be her!...to be here talking with you, finishing strong, embracing the Wonders that enhance a smile or being thrilled by words that illuminate one’s Heart...
Thanks again Jenny!
YES! I know exactly what you mean. It’s hard to find the words to express how profound this feels. (And thanks!)
There is one word that has always applied to Madonna Louise Ciccone:
Skank.
Always was and always will be. Remember the 80s Playboy "spread" in which she flaunted and rubbed her unshaven underarms into your face?
Yeah, Skank.
Who famously said she always smelled of sweat?
Totally agree. While I do appreciate her early music, there was always something deliberately transgressive about her. As if pushing boundaries, rather than edifying or enlightening or encouraging people, was really what it was all about. This kind of attitude can only lead you into dark places, I think. Her example certainly seems to lead one to that conclusion.
I totally agree. Ageing is never going to be easy for a lot of women but there are advantages - more empathy, being embraced for who you are rather than how you look, not being perceived as a threat, admission into a much more accepting social sphere and, dare I say it, greater wisdom. If you’re destroyed by your fading looks, you were prioritising the wrong things in life.
100 percent. Well said.
Oh Jenny -I was Grassroots regular!
No way!! The dank interior of that place is one of my earliest memories 🤣🤣🤣. That’s wild.
I've noticed something weird with films and TV lately when it comes to women and ageing. In the series "Expats" Nicole Kidman and her bestie (both well over 50) have young children, talk about being on birth control, and about having more kids. It was hard to watch. Then in "The Miracle Club" Kathy Bates' character has young kids too. She's in her 70s. What is up with that? If we pretend we're young, we are? We're the first ones who are gonna beat the system?
It's so hard to watch isn't it. The later Bridget Jones films are some of the most egregious examples.
I also remember watching this indie film a few years ago where Rachel Weisz and Rachel McAdams are lovers who are meant to have known each other from school. But, er, Weisz (as attractive as she is) is very obviously quite a bit older than McAdams.
I also thought Ryan Gosling was a bizarre choice as Ken in the Barbie movie. While he looks great for his age, he is clearly not a 20-something surfer dude full of youthful vitality -- he is a rugged handsome guy in his 40s. Even Margot Robbie (though a decade younger than Gosling) felt too old to play Barbie.
Madonna back in the day was a powerful blend of artistry and substance. Songs like "Papa Don't Preach" and "La Isla Bonita" are timeless. Even the controversial "Like A Prayer" holds its own, which is why choral covers of the song have become popular in recent years
Alas, Madonna failed to grow and mature as she aged. A young woman feeling the full force of sexuality can be attractive and even seductive. That same woman being the same way thirty years on is nothing but a caricature of her younger self.
Artists should grow and mature as they embrace their art. When they reject growth and maturity they betray their art.
For years I wondered why I started obsessing over women. I just found out several weeks ago about all the hidden messages I've most likely viewed through TV/music videos. In Jan 2020 I turned away from my gay lifestyle. I'm very certain today that it had a lot to do w the song, Like a Virgin by Madonna. I know the fault lies in me. It's just nice to understand so much more these days. I appreciate all truth. Ty
This is interesting. I would love for people who consciously decided to stop partaking in gay culture/lifestyle or who gave up on pursuing same-sex encounters or relationships to do some long-form essays explaining their journeys.
These types of experiences and feelings (deciding to reject one's sexuality or feeling uncomfortable with how it manifests) are still a major taboo in our society, even within mainstream conservatism.
The years of our lives go faster than we realize when we are young. One day we wake up and realize that we are not only no longer young, but no longer middle aged either. Some, like Nancy Pelosi, do a pretty good job of trying to hide this reality, but all of the Botox in the world cannot hide the fact that Nancy Pelosi is old. And all of Pelosi's smug self-assurance cannot hide the fact that she will not live forever. While she might have convinced the most gullible among us about her fidelity to her faith, God is fully aware of her advocacy for such things as partial birth abortions, and one suspects that her eternal destination will, in the absence of sincere repentance, be considerably less comfortable than the mansions and private planes that she is accustomed to. Not to pick on Pelosi but I know more about her than I do about Madonna who has only been on the outer outskirts of my radar screen.
I strongly disagree that Pelosi does a good job hiding her age. She seems utterly non compos mentis to me, quite deranged actually. She's clearly hopped up on some kind of goof ball! 🤣
There's a deeper thread here I've been scratching at for a while and might end up turning into a post myself eventually: we live in a world that paradoxically cheers "change" while simultaneously denouncing it. Your "truth" must remain your truth forever. There can be no growth, no evolution, no changing your mind after discovering new information. If you start waving a freak flag, you are required to keep waving it now, lest you be denounced as a sellout has-been hypocrite. The world Madonna lives in is one where she now *can't* stop, and can't even tone it down, because for her to do so would be to somehow deny what she has claimed as her truth. So she'll keep destroying her body and putting her tongue on people until she dies on stage.